Sadly, our churches are at least partly to blame for their presence in our midst. Nobody can give you any assurance of salvation. Second Corinthians 13:5 commands us to “examine yourselves. Catholics view salvation as a process; one we work out with “fear and trembling”. Our feelings can deceive us and that is why we must look at our lives and test them by the Scripture. Do you think we are assured before death? It’s with John Calvin. All of this is a long way of saying that I think that Catholics can easily harmonize all of the passages that the two of you cited without resorting to the Reformation-era innovation of “eternal security.”. Also, I never said that it does not matter how a Christian lives. I am taking in what you’re saying. God does much that is good in a man that the man does not do; but a man does nothing good for which God is not responsible, so as to let him do it. He rescued me; he saved me–AGAIN. I like to examine other sides to things to learn. They eventually die and they felt the sting of choosing to disobey God. For who can resist his will?’ But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? There is no cooperation from man on our own. I don’t think that you can harmonize these (or the many other similar) passages without doing serious violence to their interpretation. I’m not sure what that means exactly. Romans 3:“9 What then? Deltaflute, Why didn’t you deal with Gen 2:17? So did many others in Scriptures who were willing to risk all for Christ because He saved them. See Rom 10:9-10. But it does mention capital *crimes* which by definition in the common law tradition are those crimes whose conviction could result in execution. No man can truly say he has conquered it. So those are the two major things: (1) salvation is His initiative, and (2) our job is to accept Him, and welcome Him. Now, if you’re following some new teaching of this doctrine, then this discussion can go no further because the point of this discussion is to the doctrine as it is widely understood and taught (when taught in depth). But part of being the Beloved is that our job is to receive His Love and respond in love. If you born of the Spirit you are born of the Spirit. And even after she says yes, she still can call it off, prior to the consummation of the marriage. Nobody can give you any assurance of salvation. I also don’t see you providing any actual support for any of these assertions. For you felt a godly grief, so that you suffered no loss through us. Or, is it more of a process over the life of the Christian? I would be surprised if you think that true contrition does not require effort to repair the damage of sin in this world. What then exactly do you disagree with Joe about? The more you study history and language the more you will reject your Protestant beliefs or go mad trying to make Pism fit with history and language. And that’s what I’ve been saying all along. God did allow for Adam and Eve to sin. I certainly fear God and want to be saved and it is a driving factor in coming to him, but if my love is based solely out of fear of hell or to “get to heaven” then it isn’t true love. Posted on May 8, 2012. You are also saying that God creates humans to not love him, which is again also untrue. APR 19, 2020; Chapter 10: They Don't Persevere Chapter 10: They Don't Persevere. Meyu- you still haven’t answered my basic questions. Why can’t you square OSAS with Christian history from 100 AD – 500 AD? In the book Free Grace Theology: 5 Ways It Diminishes the [Lordship] Gospel , [1] Wayne Grudem poses several questions related to assurance of salvation that I would like to briefly consider. Learn how your comment data is processed. If we say human nature is evil according to its essence, and we say that Christ had a human nature, then we will speak heresy: saying Christ had an evil human nature. There are prophecies throughout the Old Testament. ), the contrition of the heart is what matters…kinda why the priest is able to say “your sins are forgiven” even though some acts of penance can only occur after one leaves the confessional. The claim is that the person alone knows their relationship with God and God is ultimate judge. It is in the creation of free will that the opposite or rather lack occurs. But what if I’m hurt again one day and I do …??? Catholics are free to believe in limited atonement as long as they affirm the material sufficiency for all. These people are hard to reach—it’s like they’ve been inoculated to the gospel. We hope that we choose Christ but we know we are prone to sin. In truth, I think we all actually believe the same thing. Some of these people can deceive others but they cannot deceive God. I mean, I hear you. And I’m confused. Does the RC believe that the Spirit of Christ has the power to keep one saved to the day of Christ? I fully understand the comfort such a belief would give but see no reason to accept it. But they didn’t die. This comment has been removed by the author. We cannot keep the law of God for second without the help of the Holy Spirit. By no means! If salvation is by grace then your actions or inactions cannot invalidate it if you are saved that is why it is grace. Nobody believed and/or stated such a position that man is subject to chance. This is different than the men who commit sins not claiming to be Christ or a prophet. Sin will always be a problem for us because it is still a power in our flesh (Rom 7:14-25). False assurance of salvation 5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Scriptures like Matthew 7, where Jesus separates the goats and the sheep should be a sobering reality for professed believers to truly spend a lifetime searching their heart and pleading for the faith to believe the grace of God in Christ. Many people hold to justification by death, which is the creed of the universalist. I tend to think no one has it “all right,” and that the truth is somewhere closer to in between two hard lines than on either side. The verses that you cite admit of either interpretation. Nor do I believe that men are at their essence created evil as I previously defined it (in other words I don’t think God created us NOT to Love Him). There are plenty of other passages that explicitly teach the fluidity of these groupings, as well. After all, that’s the bride’s role in a betrothal: her job isn’t to propose to the man, but to say yes (or no!) There is nothing in the verse that leads us to believe they were true believers in Christ to begin with. I like your thinking and analysis. As a person grows in his faith in Christ I would think they would grow deeper in their appreciation for what He did for us. The Reformed faith took hold because: (a) people no longer had to pay a priestly tax (money), (b) the state became the power center instead of Rome (power), and (c) the Reformers changed the grounds for divorce (sex). If God predestines and elects someone to salvation can that person ultimately end up being dammed? They continually fall short. It is possible and even normal for the non-Christian to experience a false assurance of salvation. Your answer has to be no if you believe the doctrines of the Reformation. The moment Adam and Eve ate the fruit they were separated from God. He had assurance of salvation and he worked harder than all the other apostles. No. It is the absence of good. What is this ministry of reconciliation? This formula makes Christ to be a fool, a doormat, a patsy for even those who spurn Him in new sin. In order for evil acts or moral evil to happen it has to be lacking of goodness and charity. That is very easy. God’s Grace is sufficient enough to help us overcome these things, but we have to actively participate with it. CANON 6. God declares that we can have full confidence and bold assurance when we are in Christ. But all of them miss the concise understanding that Joe so (as usual) brilliantly brings out here. Paul refers to Eve being deceived by the serpent in the garden in 2 Cor 11:3. Sin is what condemns you. What Is the Greatest of All Protestant “Heresies”. Catholics believe it is a path of choices to remain with Christ. I guess I find it scary to think that I could reject God, because I know myself to be very weak. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. There is great incentive to live for Christ, seek for perfection because this shows love for Christ. But if that’s the case (that is, if the atheistic argument against God is false), then your argument is false, and for the same reason. “The will is prepared by the Lord.” Prov 8:35 LXX. Daniel, Your right. Angels also are given free will. How much of Calvin have you read? This is unfathomable to Catholics. I am truly open to other ways to think about it. A person with $1 in their bank account or $1,000,000,000? “It is by grace through faith and not of works so that no man can boast” (Eph 2). You cannot believe in Reformed Theology and square your interpretation of Scripture with history. “ASSURANCE OF SALVATION & YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH SIN” First John 3.9-10 . He invented something called “evanescent grace” given to some of the damned to (inexplicably) trick them into … But I never really wanted to leave God. ^ Sorry, the above is me. “How could sin destroy the union a Christian has with Christ given that Christ has paid the debt of sin in full? They are also free to believe in radical predestination as long as they deny predestination of the damned. Evil in the most basic sense is the absence of good. They speak nothing of God creating evil people. The wound on our nature is incidental to what our nature is. But this doesn’t change what our soul is. Do you think that Jesus and His apostles did not want these followers to be deceived?After all, there are a number of warnings in Scripture about being self-deceived and how to address it. Assurance is, by its very definition, a subjective term. Here is a quote from RC Sproul on the doctrine of irrestible grace: ” In historic Reformation thought, the notion is this: regeneration precedes faith. God doesn’t create evil. John Calvin admitted that such people exist, but “solved” this problem by suggesting that the Holy Spirit deceived them into believing that they were saved. As for Christ, He did not take on fallen human flesh because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary. It may be that He permits that which He does not will for the furthering of His own purposes. Gen is historical but we dont adopt it to be literal. Great article. Elisabeth, I must have misunderstood you. 1 Consider the following texts: “Say to those with fearful hearts, ‘Be strong, do not fear; your God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution he will come to save you’” (Isa. Does a person need to be made 100% evil in order to be condemned? But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.”. 1) When you make claims like “To deny OSAS is to deny the power of God to save. Before I get into what D. L. Moody said about assurance of salvation, I want to quote someone who takes a different view of it in order to make it relevant for today. What do we do in that case? 1) In a similar discussion, I explained it this way: “We certainly wouldn’t want to understand rebellion from God as us overpowering Him. Listen on Apple Podcasts. Sorry thought I had. When Prots say that human nature is evil, they simply mean that evil is a trait at the present time applicable to our nature and that all good that is in our nature is from God’s intervention in our nature. See John 15:10. It is 100 percent the work of God. Did 2 people called Adam and Eve really exist? For example among Baptists some believe in the need for rededication which turns OSAS on its head. I believe we are on the same page. Take 2 Cor 13:5-6 as an example: ” Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! The entire question is about whether we can reject Him. I think all Christians are called to live within that tension of clinging to the promises of God and heeding the warnings of God. Very helpful. Nate–Thanks for educating me. So, we’ve then thoroughly established that the Elect cannot trust his or her feelings, nor can they reliably look to their works to act as an assurance of their salvation. Well God is almighty and very kind to his children’s especially small children which are their form as whatever they speak not they are speaking they are speaking by god’s power which is evolving around them and making them to speak their words. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:9-10: “As it is, I rejoice, not because you were grieved, but because you were grieved into repenting. What ended up happening was that people called themselves “saved” but really meant that they were in the state of sanctifying grace, and then when they fell from it they had to become “rededicated” to Christ. I’m not trying to espouse semi-pelagianism and apologize if my posts seem to imply such position. I grew up in a very reformed tradition. However, we can warn those who reject Christ will be condemned. You interpret the passage to mean that all men are sinful and evil. Fine. Wanted to make sure you saw/received my thoughts above? John 6:59-71 is an example of I John 2:19. Your presumptions about penance indicate to me that you haven’t taken a genuine examination of this topic. Were they directly created by God in a garden? I grew up Reformed but have (clearly) rejected some doctrines :). “I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election; and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. History shows it was for what people today call Roman Catholics. It’s why we do not do alter calls at our church because we will not give people a false sense of hope that they were awakened. You can try but at your essence you are who you are. This poses a huge problem for the Reformed system, because it has no real way of accounting for it (since you can’t say that he was saved, and then lost his salvation). It means to be sure that one is born again and is a child of God. I grew up in a reformed church. They no longer fear hell because they’re saved from it. Does he address it to specific individuals? We are humble before Christ. I think that Catholics have something to learn from Protestantism, and that Protestants rightly reacted to abuses of the Catholic church. How do you justify the huge logical leap from “many antichrists … went out from us, but they were not of us” to “everyone who goes out from us must not be of us”? How do we know whether we are in that category of people? Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back with you. 1054 Great Schism. Joe, I never said that “all mankind is evil by nature”. “. Many people hold to justification by death, which is the creed of the universalist. It defeats the purpose of why we are created which is to love and serve the Lord. The trouble with rigorist schisms is that they seem to always be right about what’s wrong, but are always wrong about what’s right. Nate–I disagree with Reformed theology here then. However, the Reformers believe that man is incapable of being saved unless God bestows upon a person irrestible/supernatural grace. “. Let’s talk about Ezekiel 3. 1 Thes 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. Jesus did not “try” to say anyone but saves everyone whom the Father gives Him. Thus, a starter drug. We tend to seek assurance of salvation in the things God is doing in our lives, in our spiritual growth, in the good works and obedience to God’s Word that is evident in our Christian walk. Sometimes we are so concerned about ourselves instead of Christ. He continually pursues and loves a rebellious people. Are you saying that God changed his mind about how He created Man? It assumes both. Posted by Todd Evans August 24, 2011. False Assurance of Salvation: A Prevalent Problem in the American Church. Good summary. So I am trying to figure out what I believe and why. I’m glad for it, because I want truth. So from my personal experience, God hasn’t let me go, even when I’ve wanted to be let go of. The issue comes down to whether man is “free” to accept or reject God’s grace. By saying that God creates evil, you are in essence saying that Christ’s human nature was lacking love for God. It is 100% based on the merits of Jesus alone. “But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain ; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.” I cor 15:10, “It is the person who knows deeply what Christ did for them who will live to please Christ out of a grateful heart.”. We should have an assurance of salvation now because it leads to worship of Christ and confidence. Humans or fallen angels create evil (if you can call the creation of the lack of something to be creating at all). False Assurance of Salvation. Peter rebuked him for it. 24 Wretched man that I am! There is a lot of things people should do but they don’t do (myself included). If Christ failed with his Church/Bride right out of the gate he was a liar and not God. I never claimed God’s will is impossible to resist. I actually meant to get back with you about this earlier, because you mentioned that you’d encountered a “strong RC” who said that Genesis was a myth. How could sin destroy the union a Christian has with Christ given that Christ has paid the debt of sin in full? What is the context of Rom 9? You keep repeating that you have more assurance than the Catholic in your salvation, but in terms of actual substance behind that comment you don’t because you do not know if you will later reject Christ and had nothing more than a temporary faith that, to your own judgment about yourself, is indistinguishable from the lasting faith. Here’s the direct quotation if you’d like to narrow it down even further: “yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Most responsible Reformed (or calvanistic) preachers would not teach that we can have 100% assurance of salvation but not on the grounds that this article is claiming. In the Reformers world there is no cooperation. Read all this. According to Reformed Theology, even the individual may be confused about his or her salvation. But in the very next two verses, Paul speaks to the fluidity of these categories (quoting Hosea): “As indeed he says in Hose′a, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘my beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’””. It is to say that the will of man is greater than the power of God to save. That seems pretty explicit to me. In the end, Reformed Theology is about the individual being his own church and priest. If we have to wait until the final moments of death to ensure that one does not reject Christ, how is this any more of an assurance than the Catholic soteriology. You’re absolutely right that God chooses, calls, and perfects, and that we can’t do anything to be worthy of His Love, or to be worthy of election. Both times, Christ saved you by His own initiative, and apart from anything you did to earn it. The “blessed assurance” doctrine is manifest non-scriptural wish fulfillment. 390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Those subtle philosophical underpinnings–especially accident/essence distinctions–have us talking a different language amongst both sides when we say “evil nature” or “wounded nature” because one side thinks denying evil nature is to mean the nature isn’t currently acting evily, and the Catholic side takes the affirmation that nature *is* evil to mean that Prots believe that evil is part of its being, as if either God made nature evil or alternatively God made human nature good, but our nature is not the same essence as that of Adam.